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  • Iraq Crisis

    Do I dare to broach this subject?!

    I know this is totally off topic, that's why it's here

    It looks like we are sadly on the brink of an all-out war with Iraq, who knows what will happen.

    Will innocent people get hurt, and even die? Innocent men, women, children, families may suffer from poor conditions, lack of food/water/basic supplies? Where will it end?

    I know it's an emotive issue and people all have many different views on it.

    Personally, I'm all for getting rid of Saddam Hussein - the man must be as evil as any dictator in history and the atrocities he has committed are extreme, evil, in-human and barbaric (e.g. yesterday was the 15 year anniversary where Saddam Hussein was responsible for the death's of 5000 Kurdish men, women and children at Halabja - they were killed through the use of chemical weapons, gas).

    Will Saddam Hussein again target the people that cannot defend themselves during this war though? They really are the people that will pay.

    The media does portray Saddam Hussein as peing a purely evil man but sometimes I think we don't hear all of it. For example, when I have been working with Kurdish Asylum Seekers in the past, the first-hand stories you hear are truly disturbing to the core; stories about husbands and wives, familes and children being murdered/abused in front of them, people persecuted, arrested and killed because they refuse to speak Arabic and not their native Kurdish for example, people who are tortured for weeks on end, etc, etc - the examples go on and on.

    Is it any wonder that some Asylum Seekers are so desperate to escape their own country (often paying thousands of dollars $ to get out and travelling for weeks in awful conditions on next to no food/drink) and escape this mad man?

    So, for me, get rid of this terrorist, but I hope it can be done whilst preserving the lives of others who are innocent.

    I hope too that all serving in this war come out safely the other end.

  • #2
    So, for me, get rid of this terrorist, but I hope it can be done whilst preserving the lives of others who are innocent[/b]

    If only, Matthew. I think there will be a lot of innocent lives lost and a lot of people maimed I heard on tv yesterday that half the Iraqi population is under 14 years old. It will be like bombing a playground!!

    I've listened to all the lies spouted by Bush and Blair, the way they change the reasons for this war. But it's been planned for a long time, even before Bush stole the presidency. It's no coincidence that the Bush administration is filled with people who have very close ties with the oil industry. Although I don't believe oil is the only motive for this war. Maybe we should stop calling it a war and call it what it really will be, a massacre!

    Bush goes on about Saddam's WMD and then threatens him with the obscenely huge arsenal that the US has at it's disposal. What pure hypocrisy!! And let's not forget who helped secure Saddam's position in Iraq and who supplied him with arms and chemicals, yes the US and Britain. He was the darling of the Americans then because he was waging war with their enemy, Iran. Why weren't they protesting when he was 'gassing his own people'. Which by the way has not been proved conclusively, there are still some who believe it was an accidental release of gas by the Iranians who also had such weapons and were fighting alongside Kurdish dissidents in that area at the time.

    After seeing the 'highway of death' on tv and hearing about the thousands of surrendering Iraqi soldiers who were buried alive by american bulldozers in the desert sands I can only register my disgust at the appalling slaughter. Why would Iraqi's think that it will be any different this time? They might hate Saddam but after what they know about the Gulf War they will believe they fighting for their own lives against an invading enemy.

    I pray for the innocent men women and children whose lives may be over very soon. I pray for the lives of our servicemen who are being used as pawns in political game of chess. And I pray for the world because I think this will only be the begining.

    Rant over.

    "Almost anything you do will seem insignificant, but it is very important that you do it. You must be the change that you wish to see in the world." Gandhi


    • #3
      If this war does not happen then even more innocent lives will be taken in the name of Hussein/Al Quaida.

      I have watched every live broadcast by Bush & Blair, and admire their stand. I do not believe they are being deceiptful, and oil is not the basis for this.

      As I type I am listening to Fox News, and Iraqi troops are already surrendering in southern Iraq. As Bush pleaded live last nite...."Surrender and you will be protected. Do not use your weapons of mass destruction. Do not follow the orders of your terrible leader. We will work with you to build a new Iraq, where you will still own your oilfields, and become prosperous again"

      Nobody wants war, but after 12 years of a despicable regime, that will not adhere to democracy or disarmament, there is no other way.

      May God bless all those who involved during this extremely worrying time.

      Even if there is a rip in your teddy bear, his love will never fall out.


      • #4
        just to let you all know that the home office have issued a statement saying although it is unlikely, we all need to have a supply of tinned foods. bottled water and a battery powered torch.

        If this is so unlikely then why are they telling us this?????????

        makes you a little nervous


        • #5
          I am against any action going ahead without the backing of the UN. I can't believe how Bush and Blair can contemplate going ahead without it.

          Beth, you're right, why tell us about getting a blanket, torch and water? They're not going to help much are they?!

          I got an e-mail from my dad the other week, which is scary (copied here for you):-

          Israel: Tourists can pay to fire weapons and hunt terrorists Visitors to the Middle East are being offered terror tours of Gaza and the West Bank, during which tourists are being given the chance to fire weapons and sit in the cockpit of a fighter plane. Organiser Jake Greenwald told the BBC News Online service that the four-day tours also include aerial tours of terrorist strongholds. He said the idea for the tours developed while he was watching coverage of the 11 September attacks: "I realised that Israel, which has great expertise in dealing with terror, will be able to teach people to deal with fear, so there is not mass panic when something happens”. Some 20 people Â* including doctors, a Middle East lecturer and a judge Â* have so far signed up for the tours at the cost of US$5,500 each. And, according to the BBC News website, one of the “highlights” is a paintball fight where participants are able to go from room to room clearing out Arab terrorists.

          My dad travels a lot around the middle east (& everywhere else!), writing books and helping with eco-tourism sort of things (!?) and the situation for the innocent people out in that area is appalling.

          I think a lot of places will be very quiet at 11am the day after war breaks out (most of the LA services where I am have agreed a walkout).

          HGL...very worried for the world.


          • #6
            As I type I am listening to Fox News[/b]

            Fox news, another highly censored American 'news' service owned by Rupert Murdoch. Their own reporters have taken them to court for forcing them to lie! In a recent Florida court case an appellant judge virtually gave them carte blanche to lie!

            Do I support Saddam? NO! Do I care about the people his regime has murdered and tortured? YES. Do I think this war will solve the problem? NO. Not all the suffering inflicted on the Iraqi people has come from Saddam. UN Sanctions and weekly bombings in the last eleven years have also taken their toll. And when Medalaine Albright, the then US Secretary of state was asked if half a million dead Iraqi children was worth it, she replied "I think it is a price worth paying!"

            Blair and Bush not deceitful? Then why have their reasons for the war changed? First it was they wanted Saddam to disarm, then they wanted regime change then they want to 'liberate' the people. They have produced virtually no evidence that Saddam has WMD. If they had, why didn't they give it to the inspectors? What 'evidence' they did give turned out to be false.

            Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and others decided in 1997 that this would be the American century. This war has been planned for a long time and has absolutely nothing to do with 'liberating' the people of Iraq. It about oil and hegemony. If they were so keen to 'liberate' oppressed people why haven't they started with North Korea who proclaim they have WMD and where the population is starving? Could it be because Iraq is virtually defenceless while N.Korea has nuclear weapons capable of reaching America? There are evil dictators all over the world but none of them are sitting on the world's second largest oil field. And after they have witnessed the happenings over Iraq and North Korea these other dictators will be busily stockpiling their own WMD.

            I'm sorry if I upset anybody, but I feel strongly that this war is illegal and that far from making the world a safer place it will incite more wars, yes maybe even the third world war and there are millions of people all over the world that would agree, even in the USA.

            If it has to go ahead I pray it will be short and the casualities low.

            "Almost anything you do will seem insignificant, but it is very important that you do it. You must be the change that you wish to see in the world." Gandhi


            • #7
              To be honest with you all - totally honest - I just don't know what to believe, I really, really don't.

              I'm very much sitting on the fence with this one - I am listening to both sides of the argument and I am still confused.

              I personally would like to fast forward this whole issue to twenty years from now and see what has been achieved and what the outcome has been. How has America and for that matter the UK too, profitted out of the oil.

              What progress has been made and whether they have been able to track down Osama Bin Laden (last reported sighting of him, he was working in a fish and chip shop in Barnsley) and caught Maddas (sorry Saddam).

              I think that this will be the true test of whether the Allies have kept their side of the bargain and gave the people of Iraq and the Kurds the ability to rebuild their own country.

              Then and only then can we say hand on heart that the war was worth it and that the Allies were able to bring stability and peace to a troubled region.

              I agree with Misty on the point about the third world war. This whole world is very unstable and it only takes one idiot to press a button and effectively - for us minions at least - it will be Goodnight Vienna !

              One life lost through war is one life too many and a price too high to pay.


              • #8
                fact: saddam hussein is a dictator who has taught his own children to be expert torturors (no I dont think he deserves capital letters)

                fact:100s will die in what ever happens

                fact: the UN have not agreed to war yet

                fact: thousands have already been tortured by this man and his followers

                fact: husbands have had to watch their children and wifes raped and tortured and ultimately killed

                fact: I do not support this war


                • #9
                  thought I would share this little *joke* and I use the word ironicaly

                  President Bush and Colin Powell are sitting in a bar.

                  A guy walks in and asks the barman, "Isn't that Bush and Powell sitting over there?"

                  The barman says, "Yep, that's them."

                  So the guy walks over and says, "Wow, this is a real honor. What are you guys doing in here?"

                  Bush says, "We're planning WW III ".

                  And the guy says, "Really? What's going to happen?"

                  Bush says, "Well, we're going to kill 140 million Iraqis this time and one blonde with big T*ts.

                  The guy exclaimed, "A blonde with big T*ts? Why kill a blonde with big T*ts?

                  Bush turns to Powell, punches him on the shoulder and says, "See, smart a**, I told you no one would worry about the 140 million Iraqis!"


                  • #10
                    Love the joke E. Beth. Not bad getting sexism, racism and blondism into one! I guess you have to laugh or you'd have to cry.

                    I too have worked with asylum-seekers (more Afghans than Iraqis) and know that the UK public's and Government's attitudes reveal a deep hypocrisy. Only when it's convenient are the despots running their countries seen for what they are, and the refugees as victims WHO NEED OUR SUPPORT. I'm sure the Iraqi soldiers know how we treat our asylum-seekers (their friends/family etc!!) and won't respond by drefecting at the first opportunity. I mean, an indefinite holiday in the Caribbean sounds good, but if it's going to be in my own private cage at Guantanamo Bay, then you could certainly count ME out.

                    Incidentally, the leaflets dropped over Iraqi troops instruct deserters to leave their vehicles etc, and move 1km away, but not to approach US/UK forces. I.e. stand in the open where loyal Iraqis can easily pick you off. Come on, Dubbya, get serious!

                    This seems to be all about who's the biggest and best bully in the playground. (NFH members know about bullying...) This is NOT the right way of getting rid of Saddam . It's not acceptable to flout the authority of the UN (no 2nd resolution) in order to uphold it (1441). But he does need to be got rid of. Peacefully if at all possible. So do many other despots around the world of whom - having no oil - we hear nothing. And let's deal with N Korea's illegal nuclear weapons (still in development) AFTER we've dealt with Israel's well-established nuclear arsenal. (no offence intended to N London footballers)
                    "Poor Tom shall lead thee" (King Lear)


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by april@Mar 19 2003, 11:22 PM

                      I would like wish the troops well.

                      Oh, yes. And a safe and speedy return to their families, for all troops on all sides.
                      "Poor Tom shall lead thee" (King Lear)


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Badger@Mar 20 2003, 12:36 AM

                        My favourite quote was from a labour backbencher in the commons yesterday:

                        "It is right and proper that the US as sole superpower should lead the world, but first the US must deliver us with a world leader."

                        Not sure I agree with the first sentiment, but the second seems appropriate.
                        That's a good one Badger, I missed that because of the constant analysis and re-runs of all the info, which is quite frankly mind-boggling! Analysis after analysis - especially on SKY News........

                        No offence to our American cousins and as much as I like the American people, but sometimes I get the impression they think they are the only country capable of being civilised - that's what Bush sometimes delivers anyway, intentionally or not.

                        It's so odd to get so much media coverage on a War/Crisis (whatever you want to term it) - wouldn't it have been strange and I wonder how WW1 and WW2 would have been affected it they'd had as much coverage as we get today. Just the Pictures and the Wireless then eh.


                        • #13
                          I have to admit it, I've watched quite a bit of coverage on the Iraq situation so far on Television and read a good amount on the Internet. One of the best, informative, interesting and realistic accounts came today when I accidentally saw CBBC's 'Newsround' on the Iraq crisis (the repeat on BBCi) - really excellent and well put together information.

                          Good to hear about issues that affect children/young-people too and their worries/concerns.

                          Of course Newsround has always been good! I remember John Craven really, he was fabulous!


                          • #14
                            Isn't it ironic that Geoge W.Bush is so ready to send young soldiers off to war when he was too much of a coward to go to war himself during the Vietnam conflict? Fortunately we in this country haven't had conscription for a long time so we can't say the same of our own leader, however I wonder if he'd be much different, after all he was in CND at one time wasn't he?

                            Of course Bush isn't the only 'chickenhawk' in the US government, you might be surprised just how many of those who handed power to Bush knowing he would wage war are also chickenhawks. Maybe if they'd been in a war they would be less likely to start another.

                            In case you're interested you can see just how many US politicians evaded active service at this site: Makes you think! Oh, and I hope Tony Blair is watching his back, American administrations have a track record of turning on their 'friends'.

                            I hope this war won't last long or escalate and I hope our troops are soon on their way home to their families and that casualties amongst the Iraqi population are kept to the minimum.

                            "Almost anything you do will seem insignificant, but it is very important that you do it. You must be the change that you wish to see in the world." Gandhi


                            • #15
                              Just thought i would share this with you all.

                              Today i found out that my EX husband is out there.

                              I was told this by my eldest son who heard it from his Housemaster!

                              Long story, won't go into it but as you can imagine i have 2 boys terribly concerned for their dad and will he return.

                              Lets hope it is over soon and he comes back.

                              Since finding out we have been glued to the television and all the goings on out there.

                              Well at least this took my mind off the NFH.