Should National Service be brought back?

[Planet 24]

With the advent of 'Bad Lads Army' style programmes do you think Conscription would help make a difference to would-be yobs?

[Crazy Dog]

Absolutely not. We need military people who choose that career and will reliably do the things they are expected to - not people who are pushed into it.

If, OTOH, conscripts will be removing graffiti, picking litter, mopping up urine and excrement from the streets of Boozy Britain etc then perhaps there is a place for it.

[Domestic Goddess]

I don't think we should teach our yobs how to be efficient killers. But army style discipline could work wonders !!

I voted "Yes". I think we need to do something drastic to turn the tide of yob culture in this country.

[Annabel]

Didnt we have Borstals that were intended to turn yobs round by teaching the proper way to behave? and didnt the lily livered wishy washy liberal bleeding hearts see to it that these places got closed down?

I voted No, its society's problem and as a society we should all be doing something about it and not try and bung the problem over to the army (much as it is tempting to see yobbos submit to some discipline).

[dozer]

dunno how it would work. Physically they're mostly not up to it, and then some. And mentally...? The bullying of the nastiest types would cause casualties among the less nutty ones who'd been conscripted along with them. And they'd still feel resentful and victimised when they passed out/got chucked out. How would Mainwaring have coped with an entire battalion of Pvt. Walkers, with a few Pvt. Pikes thrown in?
Would a better "short sharp shock" (g*d I hate that phrase) be to send them on VSO-type activities, medical, civil engineering, maybe in poor countries, in much smaller groups (don't panic , Aussies, transportation is out of the question!).
On the one hand, the locals have got nothing to nick, and the sunny weather might cheer our weedy litle chavs up a bit. And they'd get to see exactly how unfortunate and 'disrespected' they really are back home.
On the other hand, I wouldn't wish them on anyone. Most people's lives are difficult enough in the rest of the world. And I suspect the casualty rate would be too high, they'd need their noses wiped and their hands held every hour of the day. These are people's children, after all :lol:
How about teaching them something more useful than traditional army stuff such as shouting, running about, drinking, and fighting, which they're already quite good at. Maybe farming??

[red2357]

Hi All,

I voted yes, but there are a few good points made on here.

Firstly, I agree with Domestic Goddess about not wanting to train them to be killers but army style discipline. I think a lot of the yob behavious is down to lack of discipline - mostly from the home front.

secondly, I do agree with the point about conscription in other european countres and how they have less (much less) of a yob culture. But again, I think this is a combination of better family unit, respect and discipline , etc in these counties than what we have in ours at present.

Thirdly, I love the idea of see your local yobs cleaning up urine and excrement in the street - shame them I say!

What the hell has happened to our country? :unsure:

[Crazy Dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(red2357 &#064; 26th January 2007 &#045; 10&#58;10 AM) 230847</div>
I love the idea of see your local yobs cleaning up urine and excrement in the street - shame them I say&#33;[/b]

Oops - I forgot about the vomit. :rolleyes:

[Planet 24]

I can hear what you&#39;re saying CD but half the problem with these yobs is they have actually never learnt to bond together in any way other than being a crim and providing alibis for each other.
They need to be taken out of their environment. I&#39;ve always said - catch them at the right time and take them away from their thuggee environment for six months and then send them back and I&#39;m sure they would see the difference between what is and what and can be.

If you see them in these &#39;Bad Lads&#39; army progs after the bad mouthing and Bolshevism has worn off they actually start working together and begin to acquire a real pride in what they do. It&#39;s almost as though they are having the childhood that many of us had - ie camping, outdoor sports, at the age of 18 plus.
What I do find is its so sad for them to have never known the camaraderie of friendship, outside of a prison cell or police station&#33;

As for Parenting classes - can&#39;t see that working out long term - a lot of the time you have people having children who are unable to even look after themselves. Social Education is needed, but not after the horse has bolted&#33;

Yes, I agree not fair on the &#39;good kids&#39; to be forced into conscription, but something really has to be done to turn back the tide of social degeneration we are being swamped with.

As for &#39;Boot Camps&#39; and Borstals well, we only have the bleeding hearts to blame for shutting them down, the bleeding hearts that really will be bleeding by the time these thugs get tooled up and interactive&#33;

[StoneHenge]

It begs the question, can criminals be reformed?

National service would teach them discipline, but I think it would need to be modified not just so they learnt how to behave correctly and honestly, but learnt some life skills as well, and maybe even given a chance to learn a trade which would be their &#39;get out of jail card&#39;.

I think some of them would jump at the chance to get out of the gutter as a lot of them end up there through peer pressure, low income parents and their general lack of affection and love for their kids, and because they see no other way out, with no support.

Some are just plain nasty of course, but it could benefit everyone if there were some sort of training school, which you had to commit to. Problem is funding.

As people have said, I would not want them trained as killers using guns etc, and it would not be fair on those in the army that have given 100% for their badges and stripes, but something very similar would probably give these kids something to get up for every morning, other than stealing, or drugs or violence.

I believe there is a point where you can still change them ,depending on how long they have been this way, how severe their problems are, whether they are mentally stable, but all of this could be included in a suitable programme for them. Why not combine this with life skills and trades as well as re-hab and support.

I know it&#39;s a slightly rosy picture, but it could work.

[Planet 24]

Well as you both have stated - something has to be done and yes investing in life skills but with discipline.

No, I would not like to see the little thugs trained as killers - some wouldnt take much training but there really has to be some discipline put back into their lives as we all know kids hate rules, but they do respect you for upholding them...... eventually.

[Planet 24]

That&#39;s the PC brigade for you, now the monkeys are running the zoo&#33;

[tortoise]

I just don&#39;t understand what is happening in the world today.

We see mum&#39;s and dad&#39;s that are kids themselves pushing thei baby accessory round and round town. They can barely string a sentence together and have the uniform of Burberry hat, gold fence chain round their necks, tattoos, cigarettes and hoodie.

What hope have their children got. These 14 to 17 year olds who have now got babies have got parents of 34+ and these parents are clueless too&#33;

When I was teaching I had one Mum come to see me. She was at school with me and she was a right tearaway. Our school was a Catholic school and we were all offered the same opportunities. She had her daughter at 14. That daughter had her son at 15. So I was teaching this little boy who was the Grandson of someone in my class at school.

She had got in with the wrong crowd and couldn&#39;t read or write properly and had adopted this generic way of speaking that most youths use these days.So in turn her daughter had been given no opportunity to flourish and had made her Mum a Gran at 29&#33;&#33; The son therefore has no hope. He came to school on his first day with a hoodie jacket and a boxing glove on a chain around his neck and the name of Alfie Boy. This was his proper name, not a nickname.
He now has a brother Charlie Boy and a sister on the way - name choices Crystal or Tinkerbell - I ask you?? :o

When I was growing up I was a pain in the b*m, I often didn&#39;t do as I was told. But I had social skills.I knew how to converse with other people, had manners and didn&#39;t want to take drugs or commit crime as I was too bl**dy scared of the consequences.

The Police in this country are understaffed and they do not have the back up from the law/government to deal with these kids. These kids in turn grow up and become criminals. Then they have children and the cycle starts again.

There has always been crime and a minority of youths who want to cause trouble, but even though I know some lovely teenagers, they are difficult to come by.Most of LT&#39;s friends have parents that seem too scared to reprimand their children. One boy has a hissy fit if his Mum tells him off and then she gives in so he won&#39;t sulk.

I don&#39;t know if Army life would change these kids attitudes.

[Noise Stopper]

This is actually a very broad debate, and nice one for starting it&#33; Just my opinion of course, but when National Service was in existence, people did their time, travelled and met people from outside their normal circle and gained life experiences that otherwise they would never have achieved. They then came home and settled in the main into a job and lifestyle that would see them through to retiremnet and family stability.

Now the kids leave school having been told there are no jobs, and unless you have a degree or some form of skill, you are pretty mucgh on the scrap heap unless you choose to live outside the law. The education system seems to me to pretty much have devolved to "put them near books and hopefully they will magically learn things without us having to do anything&#33;" (apologies to all the teachers on here who do a job that I could not do for very little thanks and with precious few resources&#33;)

Until the Country chooses to try and put social responsibility back into homes and make people take responsibility for their actions then we will be in a spiral of "Don&#39;t care&#33; Won&#39;t care&#33;" Which is being passed generationally and leads to the Crystal and Tinkerbelles of this world, who knowing no better then repeat the mistakes with their own baby Crystal and Tinkerbelles.

Hmm just realised this may have been better in Ranters Corner&#33;

Ian :nfh1:

[Beth]

yes

give them something to get up for on a morning rather than terrorising us and old ladies

give them life experiances

give them discipline and manners

give them a demonstration that "no life is not just about you, you need to consider others"

give them something to work towards, like a qualifaiction or trade etc

give them a reason to become proud of themselves, for a real reason other than "taggin" trains and bus shelters

give them chance to work as a team....you dont pull your wieght others suffer or die etc

and give us a break from them as they wont be hanging around street corners

also on the pros side is that the services can save some money on recruitment advertising&#33; :lol: after all it comes out of the tax payers pocket :yes:

[Bonkers Mad!!!]

i voted yes :yes:

if a person is not in full time education or working (and can prove that they are paying taxes) by the time they are 18 then national service should be compulsory IMO, and not just for yobs.

[mazza]

I honestly do not know. :blink: .

On the one hand why should the armed forces be dumped with all the dross of the day. They are professionals, not social workers. It must be so demoralising and disruptive seeing new &#39;recruits&#39; who don&#39;t want to be there and couldn&#39;t care less.

I would prefer to see more vocational subjects offered at schools to set kids on a path to learn a decent trade so that they know exactly what they will be doing when they leave school. of course there will still be an element of drop-outs who couldn&#39;t care less, but perhaps this would at least decrease the problem of kids leaving scholl with no prospects.

But on the other hand, I do feel there is a general lack of discipline and simple plain common decency in this country and the forces have so much to offer, so it could be a good thing to have conscription. I can&#39;t see it happening though - the liberal wishy washies will never allow it&#33; At least it would give them something to do and surely a few of them would see it as a positive experience&#33;

I still don&#39;t know - maybe another alternative is the answer...

[Beth]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mazza &#064; 27th January 2007 &#045; 11&#58;21 PM) 231331</div>
I still don&#39;t know - maybe another alternative is the answer...[/b]

public flogging springs to mind ;)

[Bonkers Mad!!!]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beth &#064; 28th January 2007 &#045; 12&#58;05 AM) 231340</div>
public flogging springs to mind ;)[/b]


that gets my vote too :yes:

[Domestic Goddess]

Although I voted yes, I&#39;m now having second thoughts. Perhaps only those who have misbehaved should be sent on National Service.

I&#39;m thinking about a neighbour&#39;s son. He is gay, dresses flamboyantly and is such a sweet, sensitive soul. I feel that he would devastated by an army setting and couldn&#39;t cope with the macho atmosphere.

There are some lovely teenage lads at my church and I think that they would be crushed by National Service. One of them wants to be an artist and he is a pacifist. A harsh army routine, might be a disaster for him.

I don&#39;t think we should treat our teenagers en masse - they are all individuals and National Sevice could damage some of them.

Perhaps rather than handing out an ASBO, the courts should sentence proven yobs to two years of service to get them licked into shape.

I also think that we need to catch the yobs at a younger age. Those of you who have read my homeschooling thread will know that my 9 year old daughter is being bullied. Discipline at her school is laughable and kids are allowed to be little thugs. When I worked as a dinnerlady there I was kicked by a known troublemaker and nothing was done. What message is this sending to young children?

It seems that discipline has become a dirty word in today&#39;s Great Britian. I think we need to go back to the basics and teach people who to parent effectively.

Parents need to be educated and supported.

This is one of my favourite quotes. I think it&#39;s absolutely spot on:

"No nation can rise above its homes. The church, the school, and even the nation, stand helpless before a weakened and degraded home, in building character. The good home is the rock foundation- the cornerstone of civilization. If this, our nation, is to endure, the home must be safeguarded, strengthened, and restored to its rightful importance."

(Ezra Taft Benson)

This chap is a Mormon and while I don&#39;t share his faith I think that his opinions on the importance of the family are something we could all learn from.

[Planet 24]

Perhaps rather than handing out an ASBO, the courts should sentence proven yobs to two years of service to get them licked into shape.[/b]

Now that&#39;s an excellent proposition - I just wish our leaders would take it on board. We are sick of worthless gimmick solutions, that don&#39;t work.

[dollyshell]

I voted no cos although I agree something drastic needs to be done to curb the yob culture that is all too common in this country, I don&#39;t think people with that sort of mentality should be inflicted on the army. I could imagine it causing all sorts of problems for them. Yobs obviously need to learn discipline but I&#39;m not sure the army is the place.. :unsure:

[Planet 24]

Hi Lazypoker
Wind the clock back to the colony days.[/b]

You mean transport them?

Who would want them? :unsure:

[Planet 24]

Hi Lazypoker
When you find the &#39;ideal &#39;place let me know - I think I can fill it single handed ;)

[Bonkers Mad!!!]

I think I can fill it single handed[/b]

ahh but if we sent them all to Doggy you wouldnt have to M ;) how many could we fit there or is it full of sh** already?

[Planet 24]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It&#39;s full but as the bus man says &#39;There&#39;s always room for one more inside&#39;

[Resident Evil]

Hard indentured labour, is too good for them